Comments on: The Insufficiency of Hell to convert Sinners http://www.theforwardlook.com/2008/11/the-insufficiency-of-hell-to-convert-sinners/ A focus on the Christian's future Hope Mon, 26 Apr 2010 23:16:53 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9 hourly 1 By: Jeff Lacine http://www.theforwardlook.com/2008/11/the-insufficiency-of-hell-to-convert-sinners/comment-page-1/#comment-53 Jeff Lacine Fri, 07 Nov 2008 16:01:47 +0000 http://www.theforwardlook.com/?p=167#comment-53 Here is a blip from what I wrote in response to the conversation here on my blog at 2mites.com. Below, I attempt to add my insights, or lack thereof, to this conversation. I recognize that what follows is not a biblical defense of either position, but rather a brief investigation of one of the reasons the doctrine of hell is worthy of our investigation. I also acknowledge that the investigation is slanted in the direction of the position I see as the most biblical one. my comment on the eternal conscious torment of the unrepentant sinner: We know that God is perfectly just, and that He is a God that loves mercy. If the Bible does indeed speak of an eternal conscious torment that is as bad as the hell-fire-and brimestone preachers (such as Jonathan Edwards in “Sinners at the Hands of an Angry God”) make it out to be, then indeed my sin is more terrible than I have ever felt it to be. Why have I failed to feel the depth of my own depravity? Because I fail to see clearly the holiness, perfections and beauty of God. As I recognize that God is right to cast me into the eternal fire, and can do know less to a sinner apart from atonement, I recognize how distant from God I am in terms of holiness. I can then begin to rightly consider my own wickedness, by the help of the Holy Spirit, and experience a true and Godly sorrow that leads to repentance. I know in my own life I have often treated sin lightly, and therefore have valued the price that Christ paid for it much less than I ought. The more I recognize what I am rightly due because of my own sin and the way that Christ has made atonement for it to rescue me, the more I revel in the majesty of God’s love and mercy. The more I recognize how God is righteous in actively casting sinners into hell, the more I am compelled to worship Him as a result of His mercy towards me, a hell deserving sinner. However, if hell is simply a place of our choosing, where we miss out on the eternal blessings of God because of our lack of desire for Him (as some suggest). Then our sin is not so bad that God is righteous to actively persecute it, and our vision of God much clearer, because God in His holiness isn’t all that distant from us. Here is a blip from what I wrote in response to the conversation here on my blog at 2mites.com.

Below, I attempt to add my insights, or lack thereof, to this conversation. I recognize that what follows is not a biblical defense of either position, but rather a brief investigation of one of the reasons the doctrine of hell is worthy of our investigation. I also acknowledge that the investigation is slanted in the direction of the position I see as the most biblical one.

my comment on the eternal conscious torment of the unrepentant sinner:
We know that God is perfectly just, and that He is a God that loves mercy. If the Bible does indeed speak of an eternal conscious torment that is as bad as the hell-fire-and brimestone preachers (such as Jonathan Edwards in “Sinners at the Hands of an Angry God”) make it out to be, then indeed my sin is more terrible than I have ever felt it to be. Why have I failed to feel the depth of my own depravity? Because I fail to see clearly the holiness, perfections and beauty of God.

As I recognize that God is right to cast me into the eternal fire, and can do know less to a sinner apart from atonement, I recognize how distant from God I am in terms of holiness. I can then begin to rightly consider my own wickedness, by the help of the Holy Spirit, and experience a true and Godly sorrow that leads to repentance. I know in my own life I have often treated sin lightly, and therefore have valued the price that Christ paid for it much less than I ought. The more I recognize what I am rightly due because of my own sin and the way that Christ has made atonement for it to rescue me, the more I revel in the majesty of God’s love and mercy. The more I recognize how God is righteous in actively casting sinners into hell, the more I am compelled to worship Him as a result of His mercy towards me, a hell deserving sinner.

However, if hell is simply a place of our choosing, where we miss out on the eternal blessings of God because of our lack of desire for Him (as some suggest). Then our sin is not so bad that God is righteous to actively persecute it, and our vision of God much clearer, because God in His holiness isn’t all that distant from us.

]]> By: Chris Taylor http://www.theforwardlook.com/2008/11/the-insufficiency-of-hell-to-convert-sinners/comment-page-1/#comment-50 Chris Taylor Thu, 06 Nov 2008 14:51:44 +0000 http://www.theforwardlook.com/?p=167#comment-50 Good points. by and large I agree with your assessment of CS Lewis. In reality I like his position, but it does take away some level of God's active involvement of "casting" into hell and place it more towards the arena of man's will in "choosing" hell rather than heaven. Both may be true, but to avoid or not mention God's active role, in my opinion, would not be faithful to scripture. Words like "torment" and "weeping and gnashing of teeth" do not imply to me that this place will be desired by anyone choosing to be there once they are there. I will get back to you on the post on this, but I am out of town today and busy tomorrow. One more thing, do you really believe there is relatively little about hell in the scriptures? Or do you just mean little evidence about "Gehenna" as contrasted with God's eternal wrath and judgment upon mankind? Please clarify and I can respond..... Good points. by and large I agree with your assessment of CS Lewis. In reality I like his position, but it does take away some level of God’s active involvement of “casting” into hell and place it more towards the arena of man’s will in “choosing” hell rather than heaven. Both may be true, but to avoid or not mention God’s active role, in my opinion, would not be faithful to scripture. Words like “torment” and “weeping and gnashing of teeth” do not imply to me that this place will be desired by anyone choosing to be there once they are there. I will get back to you on the post on this, but I am out of town today and busy tomorrow.

One more thing, do you really believe there is relatively little about hell in the scriptures? Or do you just mean little evidence about “Gehenna” as contrasted with God’s eternal wrath and judgment upon mankind? Please clarify and I can respond…..

]]> By: trevor maitland http://www.theforwardlook.com/2008/11/the-insufficiency-of-hell-to-convert-sinners/comment-page-1/#comment-49 trevor maitland Thu, 06 Nov 2008 02:59:37 +0000 http://www.theforwardlook.com/?p=167#comment-49 i doubt that the motive behind Lewis' theology of hell is that he cannot conceive of (or would prefer not to support) the idea that God has created hell, and that it is part of his divine plan/ordination, but rather that he is faithfully trying to explain (for the edification of the church) how he conceives the (relatively little) evidence of hell in the Scriptures working out in reality. this is why i was curious as to your own conception of hell, because i know until i read some of Lewis' thought on the subject, i had never been able to conjure up an image which reflected everything i understood about God from the Bible and my own personal experience. i doubt that the motive behind Lewis’ theology of hell is that he cannot conceive of (or would prefer not to support) the idea that God has created hell, and that it is part of his divine plan/ordination, but rather that he is faithfully trying to explain (for the edification of the church) how he conceives the (relatively little) evidence of hell in the Scriptures working out in reality. this is why i was curious as to your own conception of hell, because i know until i read some of Lewis’ thought on the subject, i had never been able to conjure up an image which reflected everything i understood about God from the Bible and my own personal experience.

]]> By: Chris Taylor http://www.theforwardlook.com/2008/11/the-insufficiency-of-hell-to-convert-sinners/comment-page-1/#comment-48 Chris Taylor Wed, 05 Nov 2008 17:53:35 +0000 http://www.theforwardlook.com/?p=167#comment-48 Trevor, you are right. i was referring to CS Lewis and NT Wright, and some in the emerging church movement. The problem that Piper points out in his message is that these scholars may be trying to take God off the hook for Hell existing. That is the problem. If all of God's perfections are equally glorious, then His judgments are as glorious as His grace and mercy, and each are more glorious in light of the others. So His mercy is seen as more glorious in light of wrath. I will think about writing more on this. But Piper has done a much better job. He also has a two part series on the same topic given at his church. Chris Trevor, you are right. i was referring to CS Lewis and NT Wright, and some in the emerging church movement. The problem that Piper points out in his message is that these scholars may be trying to take God off the hook for Hell existing. That is the problem. If all of God’s perfections are equally glorious, then His judgments are as glorious as His grace and mercy, and each are more glorious in light of the others. So His mercy is seen as more glorious in light of wrath. I will think about writing more on this. But Piper has done a much better job. He also has a two part series on the same topic given at his church.

Chris

]]> By: trevor maitland http://www.theforwardlook.com/2008/11/the-insufficiency-of-hell-to-convert-sinners/comment-page-1/#comment-47 trevor maitland Wed, 05 Nov 2008 17:18:26 +0000 http://www.theforwardlook.com/?p=167#comment-47 so chris, what do you think hell is? you seem to be implying that it's not as Lewis describes it in the Great Divorce. what Scriptures are you leaning on for your definition? come on, give us the goods. so chris, what do you think hell is? you seem to be implying that it’s not as Lewis describes it in the Great Divorce. what Scriptures are you leaning on for your definition? come on, give us the goods.

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